There are probably easier ways to get Argan oil than flying all the way to Morocco with Conan O’Brien. Most of them wouldn’t involve riding a camel across the Sahara, being buried alive in scorching sand, or watching the 6’4” orange-haired comedian wander away from you mid-conversation while trying to explain the finer points of Heated Rivalry. But Sona Movsesian wanted some real Argan oil, and somehow that became the north star for Conan O’Brien Must Go’s funniest Season 3 episode.
In an exclusive Collider Signature for the HBO Max series, Movsesian admits she came home with what she estimates were “gallons” of the stuff, enough to constitute a flight hazard. But naturally, she’s already considering another trip. “I feel like I have to go to Conan and say, ‘I think I need to go to Morocco again,’” she says with a laugh. “Just for more oil.”
Of course, the oil is really just an excuse to put O’Brien and Movsesian back into their natural habitat: annoying each other like kids on vacation. After 12 years as his assistant — and trips together to Cuba, Armenia, South Korea, and Mexico City — Morocco marks the first time Movsesian has joined O’Brien on this kind of adventure without technically being responsible for him — technically being the important word here. “There were so many times where I still kind of wanted to take care of him, make sure he was being fed, make sure he was comfortable,” she says, but it didn’t last. Put the two back on the road and, as Movsesian frames it, they “revert right back” to their old dynamic. “We’re incredibly childish,” she admits. “He brings out the immaturity in me, which says a lot because I’m already very immature.”
That is also likely the secret to why their comedy is so magnetic. Movsesian is not interested in matching O’Brien joke for joke because, as she puts it, “I will never be as funny as Conan and… I don’t ever want to be.” Instead, she relies on what she likes to call her “Conan net” — a fairly luxurious knowledge where she can say something ridiculous and one of our generation’s greatest comedic minds will somehow make it a thousand times funnier.
In Collider’s in-depth conversation with Movsesian about Episode 3: “Morocco,” the podcast host and New York Times bestselling author gets into that authentic chemistry, what didn’t make it into their Moroccan adventure, how traveling with her boss has changed since the Conan Without Borders days, and what it was like leaving her children for the longest stretch since becoming a mother. She also opens up about her new book, The World’s Worst Mom, the follow-up to her smash hit The World’s Worst Assistant, and navigating a level of recognition she never expected.
For Movsesian, It Felt Like No Time Had Passed Since Her Last Trip With O’Brien
“He brings out the immaturity in me.”
COLLIDER: Sona, I am so humbled and honored to chat with you — I’m a huge fan, and loved seeing you on Conan O’Brien Must Go this season, so congrats on Season 3! I have to know, after an entire trip to Morocco basically culminating in you getting argan oil, how much of your haul is actually left, and are you rationing it now?
SONA MOVSESIAN: You know what? I gave a lot of it away because so many people were like, “You’re going to go for actual argan oil from Morocco?” I want to say I got gallons of it. I mean. I think I got one suitcase that was just oil, so if it exploded in the plane, it would have been the worst thing. But I got so much of it, and then I just gave it away to a lot of people. But I still have a lot. I use so much of it, so I’m actually moving through it pretty quickly. I feel like I have to go to Conan and say, “I think I need to go to Morocco again,” just for more oil. [Laughs]
You’ve traveled with Conan before. It’s funny because that Armenia episode is a great travelogue. But with Morocco, all these years later, it really feels like watching you two as siblings. What happens when you are taken out of that normal environment, and then suddenly you’re each other’s travel companions? Because I feel like, blend the jet lag and schedules, and the two of you are a different combination.
MOVSESIAN: Well, I was his assistant for 12 years, so I traveled with him a lot. Plus, it wasn’t just the Armenia episode; I had traveled with him to Cuba, to South Korea, to Mexico City. We went to a lot of places together. This is the first time I’ve traveled with him as not his assistant on a trip like this, so there were so many times where I still kind of wanted to take care of him, make sure he was being fed, make sure he was comfortable.
But as soon as Conan and I go back into a place where we’re doing something that we used to do before I had kids, and when I was still his assistant, we revert right back to the same dynamic that we had before. It really is just like two pals traveling. We’re incredibly childish. He brings out the immaturity in me, which says a lot because I’m already very immature, but he heightens that immaturity. [Laughs] It’s honestly just really fun to travel with him. I miss that part of my job a lot. I miss a lot of things about being Conan’s assistant, but I think getting to travel with him and getting to experience all these cool things is probably what I miss the most.
I love that dynamic between you two, and when you’re in Morocco, and you’re talking about Heated Rivalry and Off Campus — oh, I hope you’re watching Sterling Point.
MOVSESIAN: Oh, I finished it yesterday! I’m sorry, we’re gonna have to take a sidebar. Like, clearly they’re mirroring their parents. I think that’s a very obvious thing. But I’m like, “What is this girl going to do? Just live on this island for the rest of her life?” Why are we already making these massive decisions? Anyway, OK.
These young adult TV shows are so good, and they’re so delicious in that way where I just want to sit and watch it for the sake of being in delulu land; being young again and caring about things like that over other things, so it’s so good that way.
MOVSESIAN: I’m obsessed. And I love that Amazon Prime has shifted into giving me everything I ever wanted.
I love how they went from The Boys to basically all of this. It’s so funny to see that transition. [Laughs]
Movsesian Knows the Secret to Making O’Brien Funnier
Her secret? Just don’t think about it.
You have become incredibly good at shutting Conan down without actually killing the comedy. When you’re filming together, are you ever consciously thinking about what will make a moment funnier, or are the reactions we see completely instinctive?
MOVSESIAN: No, I don’t. I go into it knowing A) I will never be as funny as Conan, and B) I don’t ever want to be as funny as Conan. It’s an impossibility. It’s not like I’m going in there thinking, “Oh, I’m going to try to match him and try to do some bits that we can create.” You can say “houseplant” to Conan, and he’ll go on a riff about houseplants. [But] it’s kind of cheating; every time people talk to me about doing live podcast shows and stuff, and how I don’t really get that nervous when we do them, I go, “Well, I have a Conan net.” And a Conan net is very different from any other kind of net because in comedy, when we are out there, I know I can say something, and it could be stupid, but he’ll make it funny. I think that our audience, too, is really smart. If they ever see me trying to be funny and trying to kind of improv with him and trying to really work with him on that kind of level, they’ll notice, and that’s not something that they like.
So it’s not just that I can’t; it’s that I never want to lose that authenticity that he and I have. It’s beautiful because that means I just don’t think before I do anything with him — which is my favorite way to do anything, is just to not think about it and just do it, and so it helps a lot.
That’s how we should go through life. Just don’t think about things and just do them. [Laughs] I will say, being buried alive in the desert, I feel like that’s supposed to be a therapeutic experience, but it ended up with the two of you being like, “I want to kill each other,” basically. What was that experience like? Did you actually think at one time, “Why did I sign up for this? This is a lot.”
MOVSESIAN: Yeah! Oh, yeah. [Laughs] And they don’t tell you a lot of the stuff because they also work out a lot of the comedy as they go. There are a lot of things that they already have figured out, but a lot of things… If it were anybody else, I think they would ask, “Hey, what are the different things we’re going to do while we’re in Morocco?” But I never did that. I was just sort of like, “Oh, we’re gonna go shopping for Argan oil, and that’s it.” But then I get to the Sahara Desert, and they’re burying me. [Laughs] I’m riding a camel in the middle of the desert. It’s better for me to be unsuspecting of a lot of the things that we do just because it’s more fun for me and I don’t get in my head about it.
But they did tell me we were going to get buried, and it is my legitimate fear. You’re talking about all these shows I brought up — I had just finished Euphoria, and there was that episode where [Nate] gets buried alive, and that’s my legitimate fear, so I was so terrified, because I thought they were going to bury me and I wasn’t going to be able to move.
But there are a lot of moments where I think to myself, “This is exhausting. I am tired. I can’t believe that these people are doing this.” And then I look over at Conan, who’s 20 years older than me, and he’s powering through it. He’s a sport about everything. He’s doing 10 times more than I am. I’m just confused. I don’t know how someone gets that sort of will to do these things, and it’s worrisome, but it’s also something I admire about him.
He’s got so much energy. I don’t know where he gets it from. I feel like the more orange his hair, the more power he wields. His hair got very bright in the sun!
MOVSESIAN: [Laughs]
I will say, side note, that I have a fear similar to yours of being buried alive, except mine is falling off a cliff. I’ve never gone camping or hiking, but I need to know how to hold my body up, so I’ve been starting to do partial chin-ups because I’m just so nervous about it. I know The Rock’s never going to come and save me, so I need to do it for myself.
MOVSESIAN: [Laughs] It had to specifically be The Rock. You know what I love about what you just said? I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen people dangle from buildings or cliffs and they pull themselves up, and I think to myself, “Oh, I’m just gonna die if this ever happens to me.” I can’t physically pull my body up for anything, so I would just die. I think there’s a certain kind of person who’s like, “I’m going to do whatever I need to do to survive in this situation,” and then I think there are people like me where we’re like, “I think I’m just gonna die.”
“I’m just gonna let go. It’s fine.” [Laughs] But I get it; I’ve been in F45, so I’ve been trying to do all the exercise, but the chin-up is so hard. I’ve only done this much of a pull [gestures small amount with fingers], so I haven’t hit my chin on the bar, but I’m getting there. But it’s very hard to hold that bar. Sometimes I’m like, “I don’t have the grip.”
MOVSESIAN: I get it. I’m very sweaty. I’m 44, and everyone’s been telling me that I need to start working on my strength because it’s important or whatever… But I can’t do a chin-up just because I’m a very sweaty person, and I’m gonna slip. I need towels with me all the time. Like, I’m sweating now, and I’m in an air-conditioned townhouse.
We need to travel with The Rock everywhere we go and just have him save us.
MOVSESIAN: [Laughs]
What ‘Conan O’Brien Must Go’ Left Out of Its Morocco Episode
Movsesian says the cameras miss just how much attention Conan gets — and the quieter moments the crew gets once filming ends.
There’s footage in the trailer that I really loved seeing. Conan was wearing that brown leather tuxedo, and he was partying and vibing in the streets of Marrakesh. Yet we don’t get to see that in the episode. I’m wondering what exactly happened that night, and what else didn’t we get to see that you guys went on adventures for in this episode?
MOVSESIAN: On the last day, we went to the souk in Marrakesh, and by the way, it’s like 90-something degrees in Marrakesh, and he’s wearing a full-on leather tuxedo. We’re just walking around, and what they usually have to cut out is how much attention he gets when he’s out. There were a lot of tourists who started noticing him and seeing him and following him around en masse. So, I think they cut out a lot of that.
But in terms of what content they shot that they cut, they’re so good about using most of what we shoot and being efficient about it. When we go to the store to buy the Argan oil, for instance, I remember we were there for a couple hours, but then they edit it down to a six-minute segment. So the things that they don’t show are how, after we shoot, everyone just goes shopping for Argan oil and all the beauty products and stuff.
One thing, and this is not even something we shot, so it’s not on the editing floor, is this was the longest I was away from my kids, and it was really hard. The whole week, I was just like, “This is tough. This is tough.” And one of our writers has a little kid, as well, and she and I were both commiserating over how hard it was. Then, we got everything early, and Conan left a day early, and there was one seat on the plane to leave a day early, and so our producer came back to us, and he said, “Does anybody want this ticket?” And we were like, “Okay, this is going to be the only day we have in Marrakesh where Conan’s not here, and the cameras are not shooting us. We’re just hanging out.” So she and I both decided to stay an extra day just to enjoy it. After a week of commiserating because we were like, “Oh, we miss our kids. We miss our kids,” we were like, “We’ll stay an extra day!” [Laughs] “I think we’re okay.” We both just wanted that time to really enjoy it.
The thing about traveling with Conan and shooting these shows is there’s a purpose to why you’re there, so you don’t have that much time to enjoy it for yourself and to really take it in. So, that’s what we did when Conan left: we just kind of enjoyed the day without him.
Was there a part of the Moroccan culture that you connected with more than you expected to? Between the food and the market, the hospitality, everybody is just so nice, and the family traditions, too. I feel like those are things that, when you go traveling, especially with a friend and a crew and all that, it’s a different experience altogether.
MOVSESIAN: Yes, it’s completely different. When we went to Armenia, I was having this moment where I just wanted to take everything in. Same with Morocco, but with Armenia it was different because it was kind of a pilgrimage for me. But when you’re there, the whole time you’re there, you’re shooting things, so you’re going from location to location to location shooting. It’s different than the kind of trip where you really sit down with certain locals by yourself without a camera involved, and you really get to know the culture and things. You learn about the culture on camera, so you’re aware of that, and that adds a completely different layer to it.
I grew up with a lot of people who spoke Arabic. There are a lot of Armenians from places like Lebanon and Syria and stuff, and so I knew a lot of people who spoke Arabic throughout my whole life, and I’ve eaten a lot of Arabic-inspired food, whether it’s Lebanese food, Syrian food, or whatever. But when I went to Morocco, it was like I was hearing a familiar language, but it was different. There was this African influence in it. The food was different than what I was used to, so it was a really interesting experience. It was my first time in Africa, and so it was a very different perspective that I was coming from.
O’Brien’s Travel Show Has Evolved in Every Way Except the One That Matters
The series may be more cinematic now, but Movsesian says O’Brien’s approach remains “exactly the same.”
Speaking of perspective, you can tell the production value has changed so much from Conan Without Borders to now. What was that feeling like when you guys got to go on a bigger set and a bigger crew and take these adventures together? Because I feel like that also informs the episode in a way. I guess it’s been 10 years since you went to Armenia.
MOVSESIAN: What’s funny is when we were shooting those other shows, it was in between us shooting another show. We were shooting Conan on TBS, and then we would take some of the crew from Conan’s show and go to different countries with them. So, they were familiar faces. They were people that we knew. This is its own sort of entity, and it’s something that’s with HBO. They’re doing things to the show like color correcting and drone shots and more cinematic cinematography than they had before. For the first time, personally, I had met them, but I didn’t really know anybody in the crew. Our crew is our two camerawomen and then our soundwoman, and they’re hired just for this show.
It’s a really interesting thing for me to go into a situation that feels a lot more… I don’t want to say it’s a lot more professional, because there was always some professionalism to it. Our crew is Brenda [Zuniga] and Emily [Topper], who are our camerawomen, and then Emily [Strong], who does the sound. They’re on a whole new level of professionalism. They do documentaries. They come from a background of shooting film and documentary and other shows that are not talk shows. They have such perspective when they come to it [and] it was just a really fascinating thing to see. I’m gonna just say it: It’s a little bit more professional than it was before. [Laughs]
We were traveling with our editor, Matt Shaw, who then edits and uploads the footage as we go through. I remember when we first went to Cuba in 2015, and we had all of the footage, and our field producer, Jason Chillemi, was walking through security, and he was so precious about this footage because if we lost the tapes, I think we would have lost the whole episode, whereas now we can upload everything to some cloud. There’s a completely different approach to it, and it’s a really fascinating thing to see that it’s being shot in a way that is a lot more cinematic, and I think that makes it more fun.
But the way Conan shoots it and approaches it is exactly the same. It did feel like we did it 10, 11 years ago. On a technical side, it’s different, but on the side with Conan, it’s the same. He’s the same guy. He does the same stuff. His approach is the same as it’s always been.
You’ve been with him for so long. From your side of things, what do you think makes somebody such a good scene partner with him? Every time he has this dynamic with you or Jordan or even Andy, it’s a very different vibe each time, and I love that combination of the humor we get from everyone in those situations.
MOVSESIAN: I think that what Conan instantly gets turned off by is when he notices people are trying too hard, and he really loves talking to people who are genuine and who are being themselves. It’s what he responds to. I’ve noticed that in just everything that he’s shot, whether it’s a remote or an interview or a travel show. When he’s interacting with someone who’s truly just being their authentic self, it allows him to be more himself and allows him to bounce off somebody more.
But if he’s talking to someone who’s just constantly trying to throw in jokes and who’s putting up some sort of a facade of the person that they are, he notices that and is instantly sort of turned off by it. It’s not something most people can see, but having worked with him so long, I can tell when he’s not vibing with someone in a certain way, and it becomes very noticeable. I really think that’s the key: he just loves authenticity.
Movsesian Already Has a ‘Conan O’Brien Must Go’ Season 4 Plan
Movsesian has a simple Season 4 strategy: pick the destination first, then figure out what she “needs.”
If Season 4 is determined by something that you need to buy, where are you going to make Conan go next? I feel like there’s so much you can do there, and have a nice haul.
MOVSESIAN: [Laughs] I think I would go off of where I want to go. I think I really need a lei from Hawaii. I think I really need a perfume from Paris. I think I need to buy a car in Italy. Knowing now that if I just need something from a specific place, I’m just going to think — where do I want to go? — and then figure out something from that place that I need. So, I need some chocolate from Switzerland. I need some more cognac from Armenia. I’m totally down to go back to Armenia.
Come to Toronto and get some BeaverTails. Everybody needs a good BeaverTail.
MOVSESIAN: Did you say “beaver tails”? What do you mean?
Do you guys have BeaverTails in California?
MOVSESIAN: I don’t even know if we have beavers in California.
They’re fried-dough pastries that look like a beaver’s tail. They’re pretty wide, and then they’re filled in with chocolate and cream — it’s very good. Look up BeaverTails after this, and you’ll see what I mean.
MOVSESIAN: Okay, good. All right! So, I think next time, instead of what I need dictating where we go, I’m going to just let where I go dictate what I need.
Like a grocery store list. Just do that. [Laughs]
‘The World’s Worst Mom’ Lets Movsesian Say the Quiet Part About Parenthood Out Loud
Movsesian opens up about guilt, IVF, vulnerability and why admitting parenthood is hard doesn’t make the love any less real.
Your first book, The World’s Worst Assistant, is very funny. I read it the first time when it came out, and then years later, I was like, “I’m going to buy the audiobook because I want to hear you talking about it.” Now you’re following that with The World’s Worst Mom. I’m wondering what it was about becoming a mother that made you realize there was another version of that idea worth exploring. What did you want to say about motherhood that you weren’t hearing enough people actually admit? I feel like that’s a big thing that we still have with motherhood; the stigmas are still there.
MOVSESIAN: My book isn’t just about raising my kids and how I feel like I’m in over my head about raising my kids. Just getting pregnant for me was a struggle — I had to go through IVF; delivering, I thought I was going to have a normal delivery, and I ended up having to have a scheduled C-section. From the get-go, I just felt like I was failing at everything. And it’s how I felt, also, being Conan’s assistant at times; I felt like there were times when I just wasn’t doing anything right, and I think that I write these books as a way of coping with that.
But what I love hearing and what I love seeing is when people come up to me and talk to me about how they relate to a lot of the things that I feel. And you’re right, there is a stigma. There still kind of is a stigma to admitting how hard parenthood is, how hard it is to get pregnant, what happens to our minds, what happens to our bodies. And I’m not saying this to be like, “Oh, poor me,” but I’m saying it in a very self-aware way: I don’t have a lot of strengths, but one strength I do have is I’m comfortable being vulnerable in front of people and being vulnerable and showing how difficult certain things are. I’m fine with that. So, that’s what this book is.
I’m sure a lot of moms are going to be like, “I can’t believe you’re complaining about being a parent,” or “You’re saying all these things about being a parent” — but one thing I say in my book, which I really believe, is you can talk about how hard parenthood is and still love it so much. You can talk about all the issues that your kids have and still look at them as these perfect human beings. Admitting something is not saying something doesn’t exist. I’m a very flawed person. I admit that. I’m putting that out there. It’s just I enjoy getting the response from people that they relate to me. Anybody else who might come along and look at it and be like, “I can’t believe you’re saying these things. I can’t believe you’re admitting these things,” I don’t really listen to that stuff.
You really shouldn’t. There’s that conversation about men having this epidemic of loneliness; with women, we don’t talk about the things we need to enough, whether it’s our health, experiencing endometriosis, or having perimenopause, which is a very huge conversation. As a society, we’re not used to having that conversation because, growing up, we were not used to talking about it. It’s the same thing with death. We learn about birth in school, but we never learn how to deal with grief. So, I think you are owning yourself, and I love that you are talking about it because I have friends who have kids, and it’s not easy to raise them and have a full-time job, too.
MOVSESIAN: Oh no, it’s not. I remember how my mom did it, and I don’t think my mom ever talked about how hard it was to raise us, but she was a stay-at-home mom, and that, to me, is the toughest job. She’s devoting all her time to making sure the house is spotless. I have an excuse for my house being a disaster, and the excuse is I have a job, so I can’t spend all day cleaning. And I have an excuse for why, if I come home after a day of recording and I don’t have dinner ready for my boys, I have an excuse for giving them nuggets or making something frozen and thawing it and feeding it to them. But my mom never had that excuse, and I think the guilt really ate at her if she just one day didn’t feel like doing something. So, it made me look at my mom differently.
What I love is I do think our generation is being a lot more honest about a lot of stuff. Like when I went to Morocco, I was guilty about leaving my kids, and then I felt guilty that I didn’t want to go home to my kids immediately when I could. There’s just this double standard, and it’s really, really hard.
Movsesian Has One Rule for Surviving Life in O’Brien’s Spotlight
The mom of two explains why she refuses to let public opinion define her.
It’s good for you to own your own truth, and being able to do that in this industry, I think, is even better because it’s so hard. There are so many different voices, and there’s so much noise, and for you to be able just to filter it out, you know who you are.
MOVSESIAN: You have to, or else you’re going to just die. I really don’t know how people survive listening to and reading the things people say about them. Once Conan asked me to be on his podcast, I knew that that was sort of opening me up to a level of scrutiny that I never would have faced before. That’s because he’s so beloved, and anybody who enters that space — even though I had been on the show a bunch of times — when I’m entering that space on a regular basis, I’m facing a lot of scrutiny, and I knew that from the beginning. I told myself I can’t read the comments about any of the videos we post, anything I post, anything we put online, on social media, on YouTube. I can’t read that stuff because it would just drive me crazy, and I can’t let these opinions affect me in a certain way.
If there’s ever a time when Conan doesn’t think, or the people behind the podcast don’t think, that I’m pulling my weight and most people dislike me, they can just take me off the podcast, and I’ll be fine. So, approaching it with that level of “this can go away at any minute, and that’s okay” is really kind of liberating for me. I’m used to it. I’m trying to cope with the fact that I’m in this place that I didn’t anticipate being in, which is kind of becoming somewhat of a known figure, and it’s not anything I ever sought out or anticipated for myself, so I’m just figuring out how to cope with that.
You’re doing a great job. I know you’re on tour right now, but will that extend to Canada as well? Thinking specifically of Toronto. [Laughs]
MOVSESIAN: I would love to. We have, so far, just my West Coast tour. There’s some stuff that I’m working on to get to the East Coast, but I’d love to go to Canada. I love Toronto!
Conan O’Brien Must Go streams on HBO Max Wednesdays, and The World’s Worst Mom is out in bookstores now.